Ahmadinejad in Bloomberg TV
Charlie Rose’s interview with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Charlie Rose:
Mr. President, thank you for joining us here in New York. What is the status today of the agreement that Iran will send uranium out of the country to Turkey.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Let me give you a short history of an issue on my mind that also involves a discussion. According to the rules of the IAEA, all member states must give other member states, those who possess nuclear fuel and the technology for fuel production. This has to be done without any condition. Now, we happen to have a reactor in Tehran that develops medical isotopes that basically meet the needs of 800,000 patients in Iran. It needs a fuel to the great level of 20 percent. It is mixed to the grade level of 20 percent. Now, our fuel is -- we’re kind of, you know, almost ending. And so we requested the IAEA to provide us with some more fuel. According to the regulations of the IAEA, they have to provide that fuel to us and get paid by us. The IAEA, instead of sending out requests to purchase the fuel for all countries, decided to only send the requests to two member states, the United States and Russia and acting against the fair -- the legal affairs of the IAEA, they said that they would give the 20 percent too, but in return, demand that Iran give a lower enriched grade fuel to countries abroad as an extension. It progressed very well. The negotiations happened, and the negotiations were moving forward. But then some demand were set in place that were not right. We are the ones that want to buy the fuel. We have to have commissions not that you want to sell it because those that want to sell it have to provide the fuel basically within the framework of the IAEA regulations without any preconditions. And they came and said they wanted an exchange of fuel done. And we said sure enough, we can do that. But then later on they said that they want Iran’s enriched uranium to be broad outside that Iran moves farther from the ability to build a nuclear bomb. Once that statement was made, people in Iran felt that there was some insincerity involved, that there’s something that’s not quite fair about this project. And so they reacted and prevented the process from moving forward. Now today we wish to continue with talks with the agreement that is arrived at that has to be mutual, based on mutual exchange. We are agreeing to have an exchange, but not -- and we had agreed to it beforehand as well. But again, it has to be a mutual agreement in order to carry out anything. Now for one group to say it’s either my way or the highway.
Charlie Rose:
But what -- my understanding was that a representative of your government signed the agreement: your negotiator, for 1200 kilograms to leave Iran by January 15th to go to Russia. What happened?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Every paper signed by a representative of Iran is acceptable by the Iranian government wherever in the world it’s signed. So there was no agreement that was signed.
Charlie Rose:
So you want to, today, present a counter proposal to Russia and the United States and the IAEA, a counterproposal. What’s that counterproposal?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We believe that we can find a middle ground.
Charlie Rose:
What is the middle ground?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We have certain proposals that we have given to some parties involved. Now, we have to talk about it, and decide on the details. I mean, after all, what I speak of an agreement, we are speaking of two parties, and both parties have to agree. Now, some people want to naturally impose an agreement on the other ones. That can’t happen. That’s where problems arise.
Charlie Rose:
They want to have a negotiation. They want to have a conversation. They want to move the thing forward. And people in Iran tell me that you want to move it forward. You may have some opposition in your country, but that you would like to see this idea move forward. Is that correct?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes, yep. And I agree. I agree that this should be done.
Charlie Rose:
So how would you do it? Tell us what you would do.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You see, we are -- agreed to send 3.5 percent enriched fuel to receive 20 percent and pay for it. Pay for your 20 percent. But there are some technical details that require negotiations in those who are experts in the field to sit down and talk about and resolve.
Charlie Rose:
Well, has the -- has anyone responded to your counterproposals? Where does it stand?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Some have -- some have said that we have to sit down and reengage in talks. There is no other way but to talk, of course, I like to bring your attention to the fact that we are able to produce 20 percent grade fuel. We don’t exactly need it in that sense. But we agree to accept the exchange idea to engage in cooperation as an introduction for a longer -- for cooperation. It’s quite interesting. Some have told us that either you have to engage in an agreement in trading that, or we’ll sanction you. Is this a new world order that’s in place? We happened to have 20 percent enriched fuel, and we’re producing it within the legal framework of international law, suffice to say, and it is only based on the spirit of cooperation that we agreed to their provisions to have an exchange. Now, of course, after we lost hope, we started with the production of the 20 percent.
Charlie Rose:
Here’s what Secretary Clinton said, "Iran is the only country represented in this hall that has been found by the IAE Board of Governors to be currently in noncompliance with its nuclear safeguard obligations, the only one. It has defied the U.N. Security Council and the IAEA and placed the future of the nonproliferation regime in jeopardy, and that is why it is facing increasing isolation and pressure from the international community. But Iran will not succeed in its efforts to divert and divide." Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Again, who said this? Charlie Rose: Secretary Clinton.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Oh, Mrs. Clinton. Well, Mrs. Clinton says a lot of things. Do I have to have a comment on every statement she makes? Many people have said that Iran has been the country that has cooperated the most with the IAEA. She’s surmised from documents and evidence that we have not carried out our obligations within the framework of the Agency. We have continued to cooperate with the Agency within the legal framework. We have responded to every set of questions they’ve put before us and we have actually --
Charlie Rose:
No, but the IAEA says that’s not true. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: -- received the response and from the IAEA. Charlie Rose: They say you have not complied, that you have not allowed them access to scientists, you have not answered the questions.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
This is not the case. The Agency makes a claim which is unlawful. These are its own regulations. No member state can prevent an allegation against another member state. The Agency sent a series of six official formal written questions to Iran, and Iran responded to all six questions, and then received a formal receipt from the IAEA that they were responded to. Now, the IAEA is, in fact, asking us to respond to the undocumented allegations presented by the U.S. administration, by the U.S. government. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose:
Presented by the IAEA.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
This has fallen beyond the framework of the IAEA. We have never committed to the Agency that any member state that brings an allegation forward has to be responded to.
Charlie Rose:
But the --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
And, therefore, hence, there’s no higher nation. It is the U.S. government by the way that has had the largest number of violations of IAEA rules --
Charlie Rose:
But the IAEA was -- [talking simultaneously]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- the U.S. government has violated this law by alleging that Iran has some activities that are illegal, that the director general still cannot speak unlawfully within the framework of the IAEA.
Charlie Rose:
It was the IAEA, not the United States that suggested that you had not and were not in compliance with their requests. So what I want to do in this conversation is understand what the president of Iran would do and what he would like to see done to facilitate nonproliferation and to facilitate Iran sending uranium outside of the country to be enriched.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If we did that, do you think all the problems would be resolved? In other words, if Iran sends its uranium abroad for enrichment and that in return you think all the problems are resolving including all the world’s problems around us? It’s quite clear that Ms. Clinton --
Charlie Rose:
Certainly not.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- is an enemy of Iran. Miss Clinton is an enemy of Iran, it’s quite clear from the position she takes. She’s always threatened Iran, and the Agency does not have any evidence suggesting that Iran has deviated from the legal framework of the IAEA, no documentation. This is a simple political move under --
Charlie Rose:
Mr. President, two successive -- [talking simultaneously]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- made under political pressure. I have said that over and over again on certain [unintelligible]. If you want to resolve this urgent problem, we need to find the root cause of it. And we can make a lot of political noise. We cannot really pose, you know, these kind of political transfers. We must follow justice and law. We want to prevent proliferation. We have to ask ourselves who are those who proliferate? The very states that possess nuclear weapons. You have to have those weapons to proliferate them. Now if we want to stop proliferation, yes, it’s very simple. Those that possess the bomb have to eradicate it; that’s proliferation itself. Why else is the bomb being exported around the world?
Charlie Rose:
The world worries about Iran having the bomb because they think it will set off a proliferation in the region and that’s against everybody’s interests. The world would like to convince you that Iran should not want to have the bomb because it’s not in the interest of nonproliferation. The President would like to say to you that they made an agreement with Russia to reduce the number of bombs and that the President is trying to set in motion non-proliferation and he’s asking you to engage in that. You have said, you have said, we don’t want the bomb, correct? Categorically you have said Iran does not want the bomb, correct?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If you want to understand the truth, we have to look at it fairly. All our nuclear activities are being watched by cameras installed by the IAEA in all of our nuclear facilities. Now, show me one single nuclear facility in the United States that comes under the watch of the IAEA cameras. The IAEA has no inspections over the facilities in the United States. Now if the United States and Russia sat down and had discussion, who’s going to supervise it? Who’s going to make sure it’s carried out? What independent, verifiable regime is out there to watch it being happened. They themselves are going to do a certain number of things. Now perhaps there should be an independent body to verify what they do. We, at the end of the day, would welcome the world of non-proliferation. We welcome openness in proliferation. We have announced that we are opposed to proliferation. We carried out our duty. Now what else are we going to do? We are prepared to show the path towards disarmament. We’re prepared to sit down and give political assistance, provide proposals on how the United States and other nuclear countries that possess the nuclear bomb can disarm. Once they disarm, the solution is there, it’s finished. Now how come it is that those who possess the bomb are not considered a threat but those that don’t have a bomb but may possibly have a bomb in the future be considered a major threat? Now this is a part of the state of mind that nobody can accept this kind of logic in the international community it cannot and it’s measure of community is not summarized by being just the United States and its allies. There are over a hundred NPT or NGH member states as well as the OIC member states who have supported Iran’s position. Are they not members of the United Nations? You see, we opposed the spirit of the word that comes from American politicians thinking that they represent the world, that whatever they say is what the world thinks. This is not the case. You heard my speech today. Several people got up and left. Those that speak as the representatives of the international community, they were a minority, an absolute minority and they like to think of themselves as the international community. Now, if we want to teach the world, we have to act fairly. Be fair and just. Those who have bombs have to put them aside. That’s the end of the story.
Charlie Rose: So you are saying that the test --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
By alleging that Iran has some problems -- you know, America’s problems aren’t resolved. Just saying Iran has problems is not going to resolve this problem.
Charlie Rose:
With respect to my question, you categorically say that Iran does not want either nuclear weapons or the capacity to make nuclear weapons: categorically under no circumstances. You’ve also said it’s suggested --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes, exactly so. I tell you, categorically.
Charlie Rose: It’s against your religion. Yes?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes. Yes. It’s also against our culture. It’s against our beliefs. And we simply cannot accept to have it.
Charlie Rose:
Then why is it so hard to cooperate with the IAEA if that was the principle that you act on?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
In our eyes, we’re cooperating. You say we’re not.
Charlie Rose:
But not in their eyes. The IAEA --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
The problem of the IAEA is that it comes under pressure is what you’re saying because the IAEA comes under the pressure of the United States. They say that themselves. It’s quite obvious if you read what comes out of it. How come they don’t produce any critique of the United States arsenal? It’s quite clear that there is political pressure going out behind the --
Charlie Rose:
You doubted the integrity of Mr. [unintelligible]?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: No, not at all.
Charlie Rose:
No. But the director of the IAEA --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
But when you come under political pressure, you come, it doesn’t matter who the position or what the position is. It doesn’t mean that just because the director general of the IAEA that you can’t make mistakes. Quite clearly you can make mistakes. Question -- pose a question here. The United States has 10,000 nuclear warheads. Is the United States a threat or Iran? Which one is actually a threat? Are you saying Iran may in the future produce bombs, hence it is a threat and therefore sanctions are in order. But a country that possesses tens of thousands of warheads, has used nuclear weapons in the past, and is threatening to use it again now today is not considered a threat? Well, this is a political position. It’s not a fair, legal, logical, reasonable position. It’s quite clear it’s all politics. Weaving this into a big story is not going to help the IAEA is trusting where the threat comes from. The threat comes from the country that possesses a nuclear bomb. The country that possesses it is a threat -- it’s quite obvious.
Charlie Rose:
Okay. What’s quite obvious is that there is not a level of trust between your government and President Obama’s government. There is not a level of trust. So I ask you this question: What can be done to create a level of trust? Because Iran is a great nation. The United States is a great nation. Iran has considerable influence in the world. The United States has considerable influence. Where is the trust, and how do you get the trust?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I agree with you. And now let’s go back to [unintelligible]. I don’t want to, however --
Charlie Rose:
We’ve discussed this before.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You know, asking for the members the coup in 1963 or the support of the Shah’s dictatorship before the Revolution.
Charlie Rose:
And the Americans remember the hostage taking.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I don’t want to go back to this. Under the Bush administration, we tried to talk, as well as under Mr. Obama’s administration. But and we do believe that trust is built through talks and not by clashing and by tyranny.
Charlie Rose:
So take a step forward how you -- what?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Allow me. Just allow me. I’m going to take that step forward and say what you have in mind. When Mr. Obama was elected, I sent him a congratulatory message. It was an opportunity that he could have responded to in order to pave the way to talks. He didn’t respond himself. When the elections happened in Iran, Mr. Obama -- but part of the people were saying cars on fire in the streets. Now, that wasn’t a good position. Last year when I was visiting New York, I said that I was eager to really talk to Mr. Obama. But he didn’t talk. To me that the problem comes from inside America: the result of problems coming from inside America. The problems between Iran and the United States could be resolved quickly.
Charlie Rose:
Say that again. I’m sorry. Say that again.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I think the problem with inside -- inside the U.S. government and the politicians and the statesmen that somehow somewhat prevents relations between Iran and the United States to improve. Once that problem is resolved within the United States, the problems between the two countries will be removed. If there were a group of radicals in the United States who see their interests in conflict. Now -- at the moment.
Charlie Rose:
Now say what you just said.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I think that with Mr. Obama in office, the United States has [inaudible]. Perhaps even the logical problem [unintelligible] the world.
Charlie Rose:
The United States -- there is some indication the United States is improving its relations with the world. You have to recognize that fact.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I recognize it. I said that. But in a word, it’s not sufficient to solve America’s problems. The United States has to address its problems in Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, but you have to be a contributing factor too, or a positive contributing factor.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We have given Mr. Obama plenty of opportunity. But it seems to me that there are some that want Mr. Obama to reach a point where instead of cooperating with Iran, he starts inferring resolutions against Iran. Mr. Rose, I am telling you as a friend, this is a friendly conversation. I mean, I am familiar with world affairs, and so are you. Mr. Obama is the biggest and the only and the last opportunity America has right now. Mr. Obama came with the idea of change with the motive of change. Where has he done it? Where? What corner of the world? In Iraq, in Afghanistan?
Charlie Rose:
He went to -- Mr. Obama went to Cairo -- Mr. Obama went to Cairo and made a speech about the world and he reached out to the Islamic world. But allow me to make one other point before you do. Go ahead.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Things are not resolved with one speech. A speech has to be for action. Action. Mr. Obama said that I want to [inaudible]. Must present itself, must show itself in Iraq. It must show and happen in Afghanistan. It must show and happen in Palestine. It must show with regards to Iran right now, for the entire country. I am trying to help you. I’m trying to help you. I’m trying to help America. Those were promises. In Obama administration are moving to the direction which will force Mr. Obama to take radical positions especially with respect to Iran. Now, the members, the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council are also doing the same thing, leading Mr. Obama to a position that is irreversible vis-a-vis Iran. As soon as Mr. Obama turns into a series of leaders that resembles Mr. Bush’s behaviors, two things will happen. First, Mr. Obama’s time is over. In other words, when Mr. Obama becomes radical in his behavior, here’s what that means, that there’s no change and therefore he has been -- the people [unintelligible], and his presidential term will be not useful. Definitely he’s America’s most important voice -- historical opportunities will be lost and America will no longer be able to improve itself in the world. I am saying this as a person who sympathizes, who is just expressing what he sees. They’re constantly instigating. They’re -- over and over again I’ve said I’m ready to speak with Mr. Obama. Well, what happened? He’s never responded.
Charlie Rose:
Can you clarify one historical point for me? Did President Obama send a letter to the Supreme Leader of Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You should ask that from Mr. Obama.
Charlie Rose:
Well, what do you know?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You and I should speak about our own affairs.
Charlie Rose:
I asked you an honest and sincere question. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose:
How do you build trust --
MahmoudAhmadinejad: [unintelligible]
Charlie Rose:
-- and your answer had to do with accusing the United States of things and saying that this was the last chance for the United States as a nation. It’s not. The United States is the strongest democracy in history. It’s not the last chance. President Obama’s part of a continuing Democratic elected president which will continue after him. But you said this is a time for trust to be done, and it has to have a give and take. I’m asking you what you want the president to do and what you are prepared to do in response, if that’s the --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Can you tell me, what have they given us so far for us to give back? What have they given us so far?
Charlie Rose:
They’ve made offers to --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
What offers? What offers? Can you tell me that so far? You’re saying that we give something to get something. Well, what have they given us so far?
Charlie Rose:
What have you given us?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are our eastern borders any safer today? No. U.S. forces have increased their number in Afghanistan.
Charlie Rose:
Do you fear --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are our western borders any safer today? The Americans are in Iraq still. Is Persian Gulf now free of American troops? Exactly what has it that they’ve given us? I mean, you are a member of the media. You must know. What have they given us? And what in return are they expecting? They haven’t given us anything.
Charlie Rose:
They have reached out. The president said to you he was holding his hand out and would you like to unclench your -- he said, "I’m holding my hand out. Would you like to unclench your fist and shake hands?" That’s what he asked. He’s prepared to say, "Let’s --" and so --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
That’s just a posture. I sent a message. I sent a written letter saying that I’m really truly sending my hand to him. And I sent a message saying that we are prepared to cooperate in the following fields that I express in the letter. So we’ve been a step ahead. We’re in fact a step ahead. Nothing has been given to Iran except that your hand has been extended. So we extended it earlier. We extended it many times before.
Charlie Rose:
You are concerned about sanctions. It’s not just the United States that’s talking about sanctions. It’s Europe. It’s Russia. It’s many people are talking about --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’re not concerned about -- with respect, we’re not concerned about respect. Sanctions cannot be implemented. In the world of free trade, what does sanctions mean?
Charlie Rose:
You’re not worried about sanctions?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
No, we’re not. Sanctions are unimportant to us. We think that conflict is bad. We’re not even speaking of sanctions. We’re speaking of a world filled with friendship. We’re saying that this is what goes against what we want otherwise there are three sanction resolutions that are passed already but we’re still alive. We’re still going on living. We’re going on with our lives and I’m still sitting here.
Charlie Rose:
Yeah, and you have solidified your support in some cases. Speaking of that, how is your economy today? Your economy.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
It’s good. It’s better than your economy here in the United States because in the past years of economic crisis, we had positive economic growth. The volume of our trade is not anywhere close to the volume of trade United States has. The volume of your trade is much larger. But in world crisis, global crisis, we are much higher than we were while others were going down. Our economy is still showing a positive trend because our economy is based on Iran’s own internal resources, primarily. It’s not based on other global efforts. You know what we have, we don’t have a major problem. Don’t worry about us. We’re worried that opportunities for creating a better world and world peace are getting lost.
Charlie Rose:
But why are you attacking the United States all the time then?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’re defending. We’re constantly defending ourselves. Mr. Bush, how many time, why do --
Charlie Rose:
Mr. Bush is no longer President.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Allow me. Are there Iranian forces around the borders or are there American troops around Iran’s borders?
Charlie Rose:
There are American troops --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are we the ones who are attacking? Are we the ones who are attacking?
Charlie Rose:
We’re not attacking Iran.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Where have we attacked? Where have we attacked?
Charlie Rose:
Are American troops attacking Iran? Are American troops attacking Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Mr. Bush four times officially threatened Iran with military attack, four times. And his policy, his policy was regime change in Iran. He said it officially many times.
Charlie Rose:
Bush is no longer President. You need to stop suggesting that there’s no difference between President Obama and President Bush. You say that all the time.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I am saying first that there is a difference between them. I am saying there is a difference. Since Mr. Obama was in office, we have welcomed -- we’ve welcomed him. We tell him we’re ready to help him. If Mr. Obama wants to change, we will help. We said in Iraq, if you want to change, we’re ready to help. We said in Afghanistan, if you want to change, we’re ready to help. We said in Palestine we’ll help. Mr. Obama didn’t -- may not make any changes in the Iraq policy. Well, he didn’t. He probably doesn’t need our help any longer, I suppose.
Charlie Rose:
No, he does.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If somebody doesn’t your help, you insist on giving it to them? We can’t insist on it.
Charlie Rose:
The possibility of cooperation between Iran and the United States would make the world a better place. A better place.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I agree. I accept that.
Charlie Rose:
And the United States is -- and please, Mr. President, don’t engage in developing its capacity to have nuclear weapons or --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are you saying it or is the United States saying that?
Charlie Rose:
Am I saying what?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are you saying that you are not increasing the ability to develop nuclear weapons or --
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Or does the U.S. government say that?
Charlie Rose:
I think the United States --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Why would we want nuclear weapons?
Charlie Rose:
I know, but you need to convince the world. You don’t need to convince the United States. You need to convince the world. You need to convince the Russians, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Turks. You are need to convince the Europeans and you need to convince the Chinese.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Mr. Charlie Rose, do you see the world as the summary of these two countries? That’s a problem. Just for five countries to call themselves the owners of the world is wrong in the first place. We don’t even believe in that. This is the major difference we have with them. And they have to accept that. They have to sit down and talk with us about it. We can’t believe that the world is summed up by five states. You see, the rest of the world has different situations in our favor. If we go on long this, nothing resolves. Where do America’s problems lie? Where do its problems lie? I want to tell me -- I mean, let me just set your mind -- I want to give your mind some rest. We are opposed with the bomb, the nuclear bomb, and we will not build it. If we with want to build it, we have the guts to say it. We’re courageous enough to say it because we are not afraid of anyone. If we want a bomb -- to have the bomb, we’ll come and tell everyone we want to build it. We’re not afraid of one if we want to make it. Who the heck you afraid of? So when we say we don’t want it, we don’t want it. There’s no political gain from that. The agency this, that, there, that’s not going to resolve anything. Let’s settle it. This is not going to resolve anything. Clinton might make 2,000 more speeches. That’s not going to resolve anything.
Charlie Rose:
But your speeches --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Iran is not going get harmed by those statements. Exactly how -- what harm will that bring to Iran? We’ve been under American pressure for 30 years, and it’s only made us stronger.
Charlie Rose:
Before you leave New York, present a program to the United Nations and the IAEA and the United States and others of, one, your commitment not to have a nuclear weapon. And then present a program to the United States as to how you would like to create trust and credibility, how you would like to see the United States develop -- same kind of relationship with Iran that is developed with China. You could do that by reaching out. The initiative is there. How do you take steps to create an engagement in which you take the initiative?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’ve given the US government many opportunities that they want. Political issues are aware. We know that. It’s called politics. It’s been our enemy for 30 years. It’s nothing new. We don’t care. We can say if we want to achieve a level of cooperation with us, we’ll be sincere. If they want to carry double standards, we want to hold a stick over Iran’s head and then give a carrot out to them, this is kind of like -- not a policy or posture that can resolve anything. It’s not a humane policy to begin with. What is humane is based on government. Whatever there is, put it on the table to discuss. Put everything on the table. Let us face each other. Stop the double standard. It just fails to explain moving forward. Now, is that a mistake whether it’s going to be the IAEA, whether it’s going to be the UN Security Council, it clearly doesn’t matter. Let’s take the six. The name of the six, it doesn’t even purify the six. The U.S. influence on the Security Council can be used for sanctions. That’s not going to legitimize anybody. They can use the pressure on the IAEA for somebody to say something. That’s not going to resolve the problem. The problem is not going to be resolved. You’re asking us to be fair. It’s not going to be resolved. It’s only going to exacerbate the problem if the U.S. administration truly secures of the problem it has to have a change of method, a change of method because the current method has not given any answers. I say that the root cause of the problem has to be fought behind the scenes of American politics.
Charlie Rose:
You have raised questions about U.S. policy. Let me raise questions about you. May I? May I raise a question? You had an election. There will be an anniversary on June 12th. The impression is that you have strongly cracked down on the opposition in your country; that you have threatened to put some in prison. How do you respond to that? The impression, the idea, the information that your government has used heavy-handed means to stop people who want to protest, who want to exercise their right to protest?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
When you say that, do you mean among the people?
Charlie Rose:
Yes, yes.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[inaudible] I am the only official representative of the Iranian people elected by them. All our -- those main people who were opposed to us are free to walk around. The leaders of the opposition are free in Iran. They’re all free. They actually have official positions in Iran. They’re still holding their posts. Sure, there are few who went on the streets. They put cars on fire. They destroyed buildings and the judiciary. Otherwise the main opposition group, my main competitors are all free. Whoever said anything to them? Has anyone ever confronted them? They’re all -- in Iran [inaudible]. Now if somebody goes on the streets and hits people and creates conflict, we have to deal with them. Now, in America, some people around and break windows, will you not deal with that? If they set cars on fire, will you not deal with that? I am sure the police would confront them. It’s the same here. The law must be carried out. Otherwise, all the knee jerk of the opposition in the elections were free before the election and after. Which ones have been arrested?
Charlie Rose:
With respect, after the election, that was competitive, were there people tortured in prison, and did some people die?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
These are claims that were made in the press. These people appeared before a court, before a judge, these complaints that anyone, even if not the person [unintelligible] because there is a law in Iran and so it applies to anyone, even the president. If I were to violate a law, I’d have to be punished. If somebody has a complaint through a prison ward or prison officer or even the judicial system of anything, there’s a judge, there’s documents, there’s evidence, and then decisions are made. There is not an effort to offend anyone or condemn anyone every day. Something happens; the police confronts them, confronts the situation, they have to go to court, the police might make the arrest. Whoever has violated the law has to be held accountable. There are claims that have not been proved yet. In other words, the judge has not accepted those claims that anyone’s been tortured. If it’s discovered that someone’s be tortured in prison, then the perpetrator will come before the law. And the person that [unintelligible] independence. It doesn’t come under my purview. The Iranian judicial system is not elected -- or selected by the president, by the way, mind you, it’s independent. In fact, the managers of our judiciary and his friends were people who were not on my camp -- in my camp actually, to tell you the truth. So they were not about to defend me. They were kind of independent. They’re still independent. They didn’t belong to any camp. So I [unintelligible] spirit in what they do. Our officials are quite different from what you have here in the United States. In Iran it’s not the president that --
Charlie Rose:
I understand. And I also am aware of the National Security Council having to do with nuclear policy as well. Do you -- is the reform movement that was identified in Iran -- in your judgment what’s happened to it?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
What do you mean? Or what do you mean by the reform movement? You mean the opposition party?
Charlie Rose:
Well, no, I -- well, I mean the people who voted for Mr. Mousavi, I mean, the people who voted who were in the streets protesting. At the time, I’m asking a question, at the time, there were lots of people in the street. And people thought this was a decisive moment in Iranian history. It turned out that you clearly had prevailed at this time. What’s happened to the reform movement? What does Mr. Mousavi represent?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
How many people do you think were [unintelligible]?
Charlie Rose:
I don’t know. How many --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You can’t guess? You see many.
Charlie Rose:
You tell me.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You tell me how many.
Charlie Rose:
You tell me. You live in Tehran.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I do live in Tehran. Mr. Mousavi got about two million.
Charlie Rose:
Two million. How many did you get?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
In Tehran, in Tehran, come on, in Tehran. I got about two million. It was close. So, two million people came on the streets. How important is that? Not really. I mean, we already knew that two million people didn’t vote for me. Iran is in a very good position right now. Many people don’t necessarily operate in a party. They don’t really vote for any party. Iran’s system is different from what you have here in the United States. In Iran, parties don’t define what happened. People define what happens. In the course of 30 years, people have had opportunities to confuse people, but then they move on with their lives and are friends. They don’t spend every day on the streets. Now those that vote for me, they’re living their lives, they’re working in the bureaucracy, they’re part of the government majority. I would say they have lives. It’s not the case that if they don’t vote for me, they’re all going to stand in the opposition’s path. People are people. If they don’t win, they go on with their lives and they still recognize the government is better, they cooperate with the government. Now sure, there are those that are in opposition. Every government actually has an opposition. They live their lives too. They send declarations around, they say things. Rest assured, it’s a strong Iran. [inaudible] They are -- Charlie Rose: I didn’t hear that. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: I’m sorry. If you don’t want me to go on you can -- ff you don’t want me to go on, I won’t.
Charlie Rose:
No, I want you to go on. I want you to conclude by this. The nuclear issue is there and you said you don’t want nuclear weapons. We talked about the IAEA. We talked about -- you stated that if the United States and other nations come to the Security Council and get sanctions, that Iran will survive sanctions. Do you fear that war may come, that an attack on Iran may come if sanctions are imposed and they don’t succeed?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Who would attack Iran?
Charlie Rose:
No one, I would think.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Well, even if we can just assume, I mean, assumptions are not made in the heavens, they’re made on earth and on this earth. Who’s going to attack Iran, on this planet?
Charlie Rose:
Do you believe --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Russia? Russia? China?
Charlie Rose:
No. The United States? No.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Then who?
Charlie Rose:
Would Israel attack Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
It hasn’t even counted really. It doesn’t even factor into our equation. It’s not even counted. So who’s going to attack us? There’s no one there to attack us and there will be no one. We don’t think about war. We think about peace. We think about friendships. We think about cooperation and not about war.
Charlie Rose:
So, so when you have said somewhere else that somebody has threatened nuclear annihilation, they haven’t. You’re not worried about the United States attacking. You’re not worried about anybody, even Israel. You’re not worried about that. What you’re hoping for, what you hope for in the best would be Iraq?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Can you repeat that?
Charlie Rose:
In the best sense of nationalism, what you want to see is Iran be able to have the kind of flourishing civilization that it’s always had. Let me just conclude with this question for you, one last question, which is what I’ve asked you often, you know. One step that you would like to see President Obama take to make the relationship better.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Let me just say, one thing about earlier issue that you raised.
Charlie Rose:
Thank you.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We are definitely not afraid of an attack. It does not mean that a threat is not an ugly posture. A country that threatens has done a very ugly thing. Sure, we’re not afraid of them. But when an ugly thing happens, it’s ugly. We want the Obama administration to [unintelligible] attacks [unintelligible]. Because if you are saying they didn’t -- yes, they did. Okay, if you’re saying here they -- okay, some didn’t and some did. That’s to say at least some didn’t, but some did, to be fair. This is what I’m saying. We need Mr. Obama to change. But what he means is to extend the sanctions against Iran. Those sanctions were of no use to begin with, the ones that were extended. It didn’t change the atmosphere you can say. Mr. Obama, when he came to office, he had a conversation with our people. We said let’s give Mr. Obama a chance. Now in Iran, people are not having conversations about Mr. Obama at all. There’s a lot of distrust. Not for us [unintelligible] his trust. Mr. Obama [unintelligible] not give in to pressure. That’s the one step I would take. Your president has to make a decision and act on it.
Charlie Rose:
May I just make a suggestion?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We are ready to take any action. We are ready to take any proposal, to cooperate with him in the region, to help with international relations. In the framework of --
Charlie Rose:
They respect you. Convince them. Convince them that you do not -- convince them that you do not want nuclear weapons. Convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[unintelligible]
Charlie Rose:
You convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
They are framing us with threat attacks. How on earth can I convince them? They have nuclear bombs and --
Charlie Rose:
Convince them you don’t want nuclear weapon. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose: Take a chance. Convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’ve given them a chance. In God’s name, we can move forward with reform. Mr. Obama’s policy in Afghanistan contain [inaudible]. When Afghans lose their lives, when NATO troops lose their lives, it doesn’t benefit us. Bloodshed in Afghanistan makes it harder there. Every moment that it’s lasting get more complicated there. How else -- what language do we have to make this understandable in America? You tell me. Maybe you can interpret this for America, how we say every day that goes on things are getting worse in Afghanistan. We need to make a decision. Your policy has to change. Your ten-year-old policy there has failed. This is the biggest chance we’ve given you. I’ve given you. This is the biggest -- we need to [unintelligible] side away. Anything you want -- -- whoever offers America such a great proposal? Who would think that a country so wronged by America would sit aside and be observers of America’s presence in Afghanistan and rejoice in it? But we don’t. We don’t --
Charlie Rose:
Go take --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[unintelligible] even if the American troops or Afghan people. They’re people. They’re different. There’s still a difference, by the way. Afghan people are being killed in their homes whereas the American people are losing their lives in another place. But again, a death is a death.
Charlie Rose:
It is.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Whether the Afghan troops or the American troops.
Charlie Rose:
A death is a death. Absolutely right.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Neither group decided to be there and both groups are losing their lives. So we’re getting a very good chance and opportunity and proposal here to America to show you the way out of Afghanistan.
Charlie Rose:
Can we continue this conversation in Tehran? Can we continue this conversation in Tehran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Definitely. Definitely. Whenever you’re welcome in Tehran any time.
Charlie Rose:
And we’ll continue the conversation there. Thank you, Mr. President. You have been generous of your time. We have talked many times, and I, again, on behalf of the audience of this program, thank you once again for taking time to appreciate the opportunity and the culture that exists. Thank you.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
The opportunity will always be available.
Charlie Rose:
From New York City, a conversation with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.
Mr. President, thank you for joining us here in New York. What is the status today of the agreement that Iran will send uranium out of the country to Turkey.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Let me give you a short history of an issue on my mind that also involves a discussion. According to the rules of the IAEA, all member states must give other member states, those who possess nuclear fuel and the technology for fuel production. This has to be done without any condition. Now, we happen to have a reactor in Tehran that develops medical isotopes that basically meet the needs of 800,000 patients in Iran. It needs a fuel to the great level of 20 percent. It is mixed to the grade level of 20 percent. Now, our fuel is -- we’re kind of, you know, almost ending. And so we requested the IAEA to provide us with some more fuel. According to the regulations of the IAEA, they have to provide that fuel to us and get paid by us. The IAEA, instead of sending out requests to purchase the fuel for all countries, decided to only send the requests to two member states, the United States and Russia and acting against the fair -- the legal affairs of the IAEA, they said that they would give the 20 percent too, but in return, demand that Iran give a lower enriched grade fuel to countries abroad as an extension. It progressed very well. The negotiations happened, and the negotiations were moving forward. But then some demand were set in place that were not right. We are the ones that want to buy the fuel. We have to have commissions not that you want to sell it because those that want to sell it have to provide the fuel basically within the framework of the IAEA regulations without any preconditions. And they came and said they wanted an exchange of fuel done. And we said sure enough, we can do that. But then later on they said that they want Iran’s enriched uranium to be broad outside that Iran moves farther from the ability to build a nuclear bomb. Once that statement was made, people in Iran felt that there was some insincerity involved, that there’s something that’s not quite fair about this project. And so they reacted and prevented the process from moving forward. Now today we wish to continue with talks with the agreement that is arrived at that has to be mutual, based on mutual exchange. We are agreeing to have an exchange, but not -- and we had agreed to it beforehand as well. But again, it has to be a mutual agreement in order to carry out anything. Now for one group to say it’s either my way or the highway.
Charlie Rose:
But what -- my understanding was that a representative of your government signed the agreement: your negotiator, for 1200 kilograms to leave Iran by January 15th to go to Russia. What happened?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Every paper signed by a representative of Iran is acceptable by the Iranian government wherever in the world it’s signed. So there was no agreement that was signed.
Charlie Rose:
So you want to, today, present a counter proposal to Russia and the United States and the IAEA, a counterproposal. What’s that counterproposal?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We believe that we can find a middle ground.
Charlie Rose:
What is the middle ground?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We have certain proposals that we have given to some parties involved. Now, we have to talk about it, and decide on the details. I mean, after all, what I speak of an agreement, we are speaking of two parties, and both parties have to agree. Now, some people want to naturally impose an agreement on the other ones. That can’t happen. That’s where problems arise.
Charlie Rose:
They want to have a negotiation. They want to have a conversation. They want to move the thing forward. And people in Iran tell me that you want to move it forward. You may have some opposition in your country, but that you would like to see this idea move forward. Is that correct?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes, yep. And I agree. I agree that this should be done.
Charlie Rose:
So how would you do it? Tell us what you would do.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You see, we are -- agreed to send 3.5 percent enriched fuel to receive 20 percent and pay for it. Pay for your 20 percent. But there are some technical details that require negotiations in those who are experts in the field to sit down and talk about and resolve.
Charlie Rose:
Well, has the -- has anyone responded to your counterproposals? Where does it stand?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Some have -- some have said that we have to sit down and reengage in talks. There is no other way but to talk, of course, I like to bring your attention to the fact that we are able to produce 20 percent grade fuel. We don’t exactly need it in that sense. But we agree to accept the exchange idea to engage in cooperation as an introduction for a longer -- for cooperation. It’s quite interesting. Some have told us that either you have to engage in an agreement in trading that, or we’ll sanction you. Is this a new world order that’s in place? We happened to have 20 percent enriched fuel, and we’re producing it within the legal framework of international law, suffice to say, and it is only based on the spirit of cooperation that we agreed to their provisions to have an exchange. Now, of course, after we lost hope, we started with the production of the 20 percent.
Charlie Rose:
Here’s what Secretary Clinton said, "Iran is the only country represented in this hall that has been found by the IAE Board of Governors to be currently in noncompliance with its nuclear safeguard obligations, the only one. It has defied the U.N. Security Council and the IAEA and placed the future of the nonproliferation regime in jeopardy, and that is why it is facing increasing isolation and pressure from the international community. But Iran will not succeed in its efforts to divert and divide." Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Again, who said this? Charlie Rose: Secretary Clinton.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Oh, Mrs. Clinton. Well, Mrs. Clinton says a lot of things. Do I have to have a comment on every statement she makes? Many people have said that Iran has been the country that has cooperated the most with the IAEA. She’s surmised from documents and evidence that we have not carried out our obligations within the framework of the Agency. We have continued to cooperate with the Agency within the legal framework. We have responded to every set of questions they’ve put before us and we have actually --
Charlie Rose:
No, but the IAEA says that’s not true. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: -- received the response and from the IAEA. Charlie Rose: They say you have not complied, that you have not allowed them access to scientists, you have not answered the questions.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
This is not the case. The Agency makes a claim which is unlawful. These are its own regulations. No member state can prevent an allegation against another member state. The Agency sent a series of six official formal written questions to Iran, and Iran responded to all six questions, and then received a formal receipt from the IAEA that they were responded to. Now, the IAEA is, in fact, asking us to respond to the undocumented allegations presented by the U.S. administration, by the U.S. government. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose:
Presented by the IAEA.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
This has fallen beyond the framework of the IAEA. We have never committed to the Agency that any member state that brings an allegation forward has to be responded to.
Charlie Rose:
But the --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
And, therefore, hence, there’s no higher nation. It is the U.S. government by the way that has had the largest number of violations of IAEA rules --
Charlie Rose:
But the IAEA was -- [talking simultaneously]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- the U.S. government has violated this law by alleging that Iran has some activities that are illegal, that the director general still cannot speak unlawfully within the framework of the IAEA.
Charlie Rose:
It was the IAEA, not the United States that suggested that you had not and were not in compliance with their requests. So what I want to do in this conversation is understand what the president of Iran would do and what he would like to see done to facilitate nonproliferation and to facilitate Iran sending uranium outside of the country to be enriched.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If we did that, do you think all the problems would be resolved? In other words, if Iran sends its uranium abroad for enrichment and that in return you think all the problems are resolving including all the world’s problems around us? It’s quite clear that Ms. Clinton --
Charlie Rose:
Certainly not.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- is an enemy of Iran. Miss Clinton is an enemy of Iran, it’s quite clear from the position she takes. She’s always threatened Iran, and the Agency does not have any evidence suggesting that Iran has deviated from the legal framework of the IAEA, no documentation. This is a simple political move under --
Charlie Rose:
Mr. President, two successive -- [talking simultaneously]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
-- made under political pressure. I have said that over and over again on certain [unintelligible]. If you want to resolve this urgent problem, we need to find the root cause of it. And we can make a lot of political noise. We cannot really pose, you know, these kind of political transfers. We must follow justice and law. We want to prevent proliferation. We have to ask ourselves who are those who proliferate? The very states that possess nuclear weapons. You have to have those weapons to proliferate them. Now if we want to stop proliferation, yes, it’s very simple. Those that possess the bomb have to eradicate it; that’s proliferation itself. Why else is the bomb being exported around the world?
Charlie Rose:
The world worries about Iran having the bomb because they think it will set off a proliferation in the region and that’s against everybody’s interests. The world would like to convince you that Iran should not want to have the bomb because it’s not in the interest of nonproliferation. The President would like to say to you that they made an agreement with Russia to reduce the number of bombs and that the President is trying to set in motion non-proliferation and he’s asking you to engage in that. You have said, you have said, we don’t want the bomb, correct? Categorically you have said Iran does not want the bomb, correct?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If you want to understand the truth, we have to look at it fairly. All our nuclear activities are being watched by cameras installed by the IAEA in all of our nuclear facilities. Now, show me one single nuclear facility in the United States that comes under the watch of the IAEA cameras. The IAEA has no inspections over the facilities in the United States. Now if the United States and Russia sat down and had discussion, who’s going to supervise it? Who’s going to make sure it’s carried out? What independent, verifiable regime is out there to watch it being happened. They themselves are going to do a certain number of things. Now perhaps there should be an independent body to verify what they do. We, at the end of the day, would welcome the world of non-proliferation. We welcome openness in proliferation. We have announced that we are opposed to proliferation. We carried out our duty. Now what else are we going to do? We are prepared to show the path towards disarmament. We’re prepared to sit down and give political assistance, provide proposals on how the United States and other nuclear countries that possess the nuclear bomb can disarm. Once they disarm, the solution is there, it’s finished. Now how come it is that those who possess the bomb are not considered a threat but those that don’t have a bomb but may possibly have a bomb in the future be considered a major threat? Now this is a part of the state of mind that nobody can accept this kind of logic in the international community it cannot and it’s measure of community is not summarized by being just the United States and its allies. There are over a hundred NPT or NGH member states as well as the OIC member states who have supported Iran’s position. Are they not members of the United Nations? You see, we opposed the spirit of the word that comes from American politicians thinking that they represent the world, that whatever they say is what the world thinks. This is not the case. You heard my speech today. Several people got up and left. Those that speak as the representatives of the international community, they were a minority, an absolute minority and they like to think of themselves as the international community. Now, if we want to teach the world, we have to act fairly. Be fair and just. Those who have bombs have to put them aside. That’s the end of the story.
Charlie Rose: So you are saying that the test --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
By alleging that Iran has some problems -- you know, America’s problems aren’t resolved. Just saying Iran has problems is not going to resolve this problem.
Charlie Rose:
With respect to my question, you categorically say that Iran does not want either nuclear weapons or the capacity to make nuclear weapons: categorically under no circumstances. You’ve also said it’s suggested --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes, exactly so. I tell you, categorically.
Charlie Rose: It’s against your religion. Yes?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Yes. Yes. It’s also against our culture. It’s against our beliefs. And we simply cannot accept to have it.
Charlie Rose:
Then why is it so hard to cooperate with the IAEA if that was the principle that you act on?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
In our eyes, we’re cooperating. You say we’re not.
Charlie Rose:
But not in their eyes. The IAEA --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
The problem of the IAEA is that it comes under pressure is what you’re saying because the IAEA comes under the pressure of the United States. They say that themselves. It’s quite obvious if you read what comes out of it. How come they don’t produce any critique of the United States arsenal? It’s quite clear that there is political pressure going out behind the --
Charlie Rose:
You doubted the integrity of Mr. [unintelligible]?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: No, not at all.
Charlie Rose:
No. But the director of the IAEA --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
But when you come under political pressure, you come, it doesn’t matter who the position or what the position is. It doesn’t mean that just because the director general of the IAEA that you can’t make mistakes. Quite clearly you can make mistakes. Question -- pose a question here. The United States has 10,000 nuclear warheads. Is the United States a threat or Iran? Which one is actually a threat? Are you saying Iran may in the future produce bombs, hence it is a threat and therefore sanctions are in order. But a country that possesses tens of thousands of warheads, has used nuclear weapons in the past, and is threatening to use it again now today is not considered a threat? Well, this is a political position. It’s not a fair, legal, logical, reasonable position. It’s quite clear it’s all politics. Weaving this into a big story is not going to help the IAEA is trusting where the threat comes from. The threat comes from the country that possesses a nuclear bomb. The country that possesses it is a threat -- it’s quite obvious.
Charlie Rose:
Okay. What’s quite obvious is that there is not a level of trust between your government and President Obama’s government. There is not a level of trust. So I ask you this question: What can be done to create a level of trust? Because Iran is a great nation. The United States is a great nation. Iran has considerable influence in the world. The United States has considerable influence. Where is the trust, and how do you get the trust?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I agree with you. And now let’s go back to [unintelligible]. I don’t want to, however --
Charlie Rose:
We’ve discussed this before.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You know, asking for the members the coup in 1963 or the support of the Shah’s dictatorship before the Revolution.
Charlie Rose:
And the Americans remember the hostage taking.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I don’t want to go back to this. Under the Bush administration, we tried to talk, as well as under Mr. Obama’s administration. But and we do believe that trust is built through talks and not by clashing and by tyranny.
Charlie Rose:
So take a step forward how you -- what?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Allow me. Just allow me. I’m going to take that step forward and say what you have in mind. When Mr. Obama was elected, I sent him a congratulatory message. It was an opportunity that he could have responded to in order to pave the way to talks. He didn’t respond himself. When the elections happened in Iran, Mr. Obama -- but part of the people were saying cars on fire in the streets. Now, that wasn’t a good position. Last year when I was visiting New York, I said that I was eager to really talk to Mr. Obama. But he didn’t talk. To me that the problem comes from inside America: the result of problems coming from inside America. The problems between Iran and the United States could be resolved quickly.
Charlie Rose:
Say that again. I’m sorry. Say that again.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I think the problem with inside -- inside the U.S. government and the politicians and the statesmen that somehow somewhat prevents relations between Iran and the United States to improve. Once that problem is resolved within the United States, the problems between the two countries will be removed. If there were a group of radicals in the United States who see their interests in conflict. Now -- at the moment.
Charlie Rose:
Now say what you just said.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I think that with Mr. Obama in office, the United States has [inaudible]. Perhaps even the logical problem [unintelligible] the world.
Charlie Rose:
The United States -- there is some indication the United States is improving its relations with the world. You have to recognize that fact.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I recognize it. I said that. But in a word, it’s not sufficient to solve America’s problems. The United States has to address its problems in Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and elsewhere.
Charlie Rose:
Yes, but you have to be a contributing factor too, or a positive contributing factor.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We have given Mr. Obama plenty of opportunity. But it seems to me that there are some that want Mr. Obama to reach a point where instead of cooperating with Iran, he starts inferring resolutions against Iran. Mr. Rose, I am telling you as a friend, this is a friendly conversation. I mean, I am familiar with world affairs, and so are you. Mr. Obama is the biggest and the only and the last opportunity America has right now. Mr. Obama came with the idea of change with the motive of change. Where has he done it? Where? What corner of the world? In Iraq, in Afghanistan?
Charlie Rose:
He went to -- Mr. Obama went to Cairo -- Mr. Obama went to Cairo and made a speech about the world and he reached out to the Islamic world. But allow me to make one other point before you do. Go ahead.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Things are not resolved with one speech. A speech has to be for action. Action. Mr. Obama said that I want to [inaudible]. Must present itself, must show itself in Iraq. It must show and happen in Afghanistan. It must show and happen in Palestine. It must show with regards to Iran right now, for the entire country. I am trying to help you. I’m trying to help you. I’m trying to help America. Those were promises. In Obama administration are moving to the direction which will force Mr. Obama to take radical positions especially with respect to Iran. Now, the members, the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council are also doing the same thing, leading Mr. Obama to a position that is irreversible vis-a-vis Iran. As soon as Mr. Obama turns into a series of leaders that resembles Mr. Bush’s behaviors, two things will happen. First, Mr. Obama’s time is over. In other words, when Mr. Obama becomes radical in his behavior, here’s what that means, that there’s no change and therefore he has been -- the people [unintelligible], and his presidential term will be not useful. Definitely he’s America’s most important voice -- historical opportunities will be lost and America will no longer be able to improve itself in the world. I am saying this as a person who sympathizes, who is just expressing what he sees. They’re constantly instigating. They’re -- over and over again I’ve said I’m ready to speak with Mr. Obama. Well, what happened? He’s never responded.
Charlie Rose:
Can you clarify one historical point for me? Did President Obama send a letter to the Supreme Leader of Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You should ask that from Mr. Obama.
Charlie Rose:
Well, what do you know?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You and I should speak about our own affairs.
Charlie Rose:
I asked you an honest and sincere question. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose:
How do you build trust --
MahmoudAhmadinejad: [unintelligible]
Charlie Rose:
-- and your answer had to do with accusing the United States of things and saying that this was the last chance for the United States as a nation. It’s not. The United States is the strongest democracy in history. It’s not the last chance. President Obama’s part of a continuing Democratic elected president which will continue after him. But you said this is a time for trust to be done, and it has to have a give and take. I’m asking you what you want the president to do and what you are prepared to do in response, if that’s the --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Can you tell me, what have they given us so far for us to give back? What have they given us so far?
Charlie Rose:
They’ve made offers to --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
What offers? What offers? Can you tell me that so far? You’re saying that we give something to get something. Well, what have they given us so far?
Charlie Rose:
What have you given us?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are our eastern borders any safer today? No. U.S. forces have increased their number in Afghanistan.
Charlie Rose:
Do you fear --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are our western borders any safer today? The Americans are in Iraq still. Is Persian Gulf now free of American troops? Exactly what has it that they’ve given us? I mean, you are a member of the media. You must know. What have they given us? And what in return are they expecting? They haven’t given us anything.
Charlie Rose:
They have reached out. The president said to you he was holding his hand out and would you like to unclench your -- he said, "I’m holding my hand out. Would you like to unclench your fist and shake hands?" That’s what he asked. He’s prepared to say, "Let’s --" and so --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
That’s just a posture. I sent a message. I sent a written letter saying that I’m really truly sending my hand to him. And I sent a message saying that we are prepared to cooperate in the following fields that I express in the letter. So we’ve been a step ahead. We’re in fact a step ahead. Nothing has been given to Iran except that your hand has been extended. So we extended it earlier. We extended it many times before.
Charlie Rose:
You are concerned about sanctions. It’s not just the United States that’s talking about sanctions. It’s Europe. It’s Russia. It’s many people are talking about --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’re not concerned about -- with respect, we’re not concerned about respect. Sanctions cannot be implemented. In the world of free trade, what does sanctions mean?
Charlie Rose:
You’re not worried about sanctions?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
No, we’re not. Sanctions are unimportant to us. We think that conflict is bad. We’re not even speaking of sanctions. We’re speaking of a world filled with friendship. We’re saying that this is what goes against what we want otherwise there are three sanction resolutions that are passed already but we’re still alive. We’re still going on living. We’re going on with our lives and I’m still sitting here.
Charlie Rose:
Yeah, and you have solidified your support in some cases. Speaking of that, how is your economy today? Your economy.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
It’s good. It’s better than your economy here in the United States because in the past years of economic crisis, we had positive economic growth. The volume of our trade is not anywhere close to the volume of trade United States has. The volume of your trade is much larger. But in world crisis, global crisis, we are much higher than we were while others were going down. Our economy is still showing a positive trend because our economy is based on Iran’s own internal resources, primarily. It’s not based on other global efforts. You know what we have, we don’t have a major problem. Don’t worry about us. We’re worried that opportunities for creating a better world and world peace are getting lost.
Charlie Rose:
But why are you attacking the United States all the time then?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’re defending. We’re constantly defending ourselves. Mr. Bush, how many time, why do --
Charlie Rose:
Mr. Bush is no longer President.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Allow me. Are there Iranian forces around the borders or are there American troops around Iran’s borders?
Charlie Rose:
There are American troops --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are we the ones who are attacking? Are we the ones who are attacking?
Charlie Rose:
We’re not attacking Iran.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Where have we attacked? Where have we attacked?
Charlie Rose:
Are American troops attacking Iran? Are American troops attacking Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Mr. Bush four times officially threatened Iran with military attack, four times. And his policy, his policy was regime change in Iran. He said it officially many times.
Charlie Rose:
Bush is no longer President. You need to stop suggesting that there’s no difference between President Obama and President Bush. You say that all the time.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I am saying first that there is a difference between them. I am saying there is a difference. Since Mr. Obama was in office, we have welcomed -- we’ve welcomed him. We tell him we’re ready to help him. If Mr. Obama wants to change, we will help. We said in Iraq, if you want to change, we’re ready to help. We said in Afghanistan, if you want to change, we’re ready to help. We said in Palestine we’ll help. Mr. Obama didn’t -- may not make any changes in the Iraq policy. Well, he didn’t. He probably doesn’t need our help any longer, I suppose.
Charlie Rose:
No, he does.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
If somebody doesn’t your help, you insist on giving it to them? We can’t insist on it.
Charlie Rose:
The possibility of cooperation between Iran and the United States would make the world a better place. A better place.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I agree. I accept that.
Charlie Rose:
And the United States is -- and please, Mr. President, don’t engage in developing its capacity to have nuclear weapons or --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are you saying it or is the United States saying that?
Charlie Rose:
Am I saying what?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Are you saying that you are not increasing the ability to develop nuclear weapons or --
Charlie Rose:
Yes.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Or does the U.S. government say that?
Charlie Rose:
I think the United States --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Why would we want nuclear weapons?
Charlie Rose:
I know, but you need to convince the world. You don’t need to convince the United States. You need to convince the world. You need to convince the Russians, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Turks. You are need to convince the Europeans and you need to convince the Chinese.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Mr. Charlie Rose, do you see the world as the summary of these two countries? That’s a problem. Just for five countries to call themselves the owners of the world is wrong in the first place. We don’t even believe in that. This is the major difference we have with them. And they have to accept that. They have to sit down and talk with us about it. We can’t believe that the world is summed up by five states. You see, the rest of the world has different situations in our favor. If we go on long this, nothing resolves. Where do America’s problems lie? Where do its problems lie? I want to tell me -- I mean, let me just set your mind -- I want to give your mind some rest. We are opposed with the bomb, the nuclear bomb, and we will not build it. If we with want to build it, we have the guts to say it. We’re courageous enough to say it because we are not afraid of anyone. If we want a bomb -- to have the bomb, we’ll come and tell everyone we want to build it. We’re not afraid of one if we want to make it. Who the heck you afraid of? So when we say we don’t want it, we don’t want it. There’s no political gain from that. The agency this, that, there, that’s not going to resolve anything. Let’s settle it. This is not going to resolve anything. Clinton might make 2,000 more speeches. That’s not going to resolve anything.
Charlie Rose:
But your speeches --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Iran is not going get harmed by those statements. Exactly how -- what harm will that bring to Iran? We’ve been under American pressure for 30 years, and it’s only made us stronger.
Charlie Rose:
Before you leave New York, present a program to the United Nations and the IAEA and the United States and others of, one, your commitment not to have a nuclear weapon. And then present a program to the United States as to how you would like to create trust and credibility, how you would like to see the United States develop -- same kind of relationship with Iran that is developed with China. You could do that by reaching out. The initiative is there. How do you take steps to create an engagement in which you take the initiative?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’ve given the US government many opportunities that they want. Political issues are aware. We know that. It’s called politics. It’s been our enemy for 30 years. It’s nothing new. We don’t care. We can say if we want to achieve a level of cooperation with us, we’ll be sincere. If they want to carry double standards, we want to hold a stick over Iran’s head and then give a carrot out to them, this is kind of like -- not a policy or posture that can resolve anything. It’s not a humane policy to begin with. What is humane is based on government. Whatever there is, put it on the table to discuss. Put everything on the table. Let us face each other. Stop the double standard. It just fails to explain moving forward. Now, is that a mistake whether it’s going to be the IAEA, whether it’s going to be the UN Security Council, it clearly doesn’t matter. Let’s take the six. The name of the six, it doesn’t even purify the six. The U.S. influence on the Security Council can be used for sanctions. That’s not going to legitimize anybody. They can use the pressure on the IAEA for somebody to say something. That’s not going to resolve the problem. The problem is not going to be resolved. You’re asking us to be fair. It’s not going to be resolved. It’s only going to exacerbate the problem if the U.S. administration truly secures of the problem it has to have a change of method, a change of method because the current method has not given any answers. I say that the root cause of the problem has to be fought behind the scenes of American politics.
Charlie Rose:
You have raised questions about U.S. policy. Let me raise questions about you. May I? May I raise a question? You had an election. There will be an anniversary on June 12th. The impression is that you have strongly cracked down on the opposition in your country; that you have threatened to put some in prison. How do you respond to that? The impression, the idea, the information that your government has used heavy-handed means to stop people who want to protest, who want to exercise their right to protest?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
When you say that, do you mean among the people?
Charlie Rose:
Yes, yes.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[inaudible] I am the only official representative of the Iranian people elected by them. All our -- those main people who were opposed to us are free to walk around. The leaders of the opposition are free in Iran. They’re all free. They actually have official positions in Iran. They’re still holding their posts. Sure, there are few who went on the streets. They put cars on fire. They destroyed buildings and the judiciary. Otherwise the main opposition group, my main competitors are all free. Whoever said anything to them? Has anyone ever confronted them? They’re all -- in Iran [inaudible]. Now if somebody goes on the streets and hits people and creates conflict, we have to deal with them. Now, in America, some people around and break windows, will you not deal with that? If they set cars on fire, will you not deal with that? I am sure the police would confront them. It’s the same here. The law must be carried out. Otherwise, all the knee jerk of the opposition in the elections were free before the election and after. Which ones have been arrested?
Charlie Rose:
With respect, after the election, that was competitive, were there people tortured in prison, and did some people die?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
These are claims that were made in the press. These people appeared before a court, before a judge, these complaints that anyone, even if not the person [unintelligible] because there is a law in Iran and so it applies to anyone, even the president. If I were to violate a law, I’d have to be punished. If somebody has a complaint through a prison ward or prison officer or even the judicial system of anything, there’s a judge, there’s documents, there’s evidence, and then decisions are made. There is not an effort to offend anyone or condemn anyone every day. Something happens; the police confronts them, confronts the situation, they have to go to court, the police might make the arrest. Whoever has violated the law has to be held accountable. There are claims that have not been proved yet. In other words, the judge has not accepted those claims that anyone’s been tortured. If it’s discovered that someone’s be tortured in prison, then the perpetrator will come before the law. And the person that [unintelligible] independence. It doesn’t come under my purview. The Iranian judicial system is not elected -- or selected by the president, by the way, mind you, it’s independent. In fact, the managers of our judiciary and his friends were people who were not on my camp -- in my camp actually, to tell you the truth. So they were not about to defend me. They were kind of independent. They’re still independent. They didn’t belong to any camp. So I [unintelligible] spirit in what they do. Our officials are quite different from what you have here in the United States. In Iran it’s not the president that --
Charlie Rose:
I understand. And I also am aware of the National Security Council having to do with nuclear policy as well. Do you -- is the reform movement that was identified in Iran -- in your judgment what’s happened to it?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
What do you mean? Or what do you mean by the reform movement? You mean the opposition party?
Charlie Rose:
Well, no, I -- well, I mean the people who voted for Mr. Mousavi, I mean, the people who voted who were in the streets protesting. At the time, I’m asking a question, at the time, there were lots of people in the street. And people thought this was a decisive moment in Iranian history. It turned out that you clearly had prevailed at this time. What’s happened to the reform movement? What does Mr. Mousavi represent?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
How many people do you think were [unintelligible]?
Charlie Rose:
I don’t know. How many --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You can’t guess? You see many.
Charlie Rose:
You tell me.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
You tell me how many.
Charlie Rose:
You tell me. You live in Tehran.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
I do live in Tehran. Mr. Mousavi got about two million.
Charlie Rose:
Two million. How many did you get?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
In Tehran, in Tehran, come on, in Tehran. I got about two million. It was close. So, two million people came on the streets. How important is that? Not really. I mean, we already knew that two million people didn’t vote for me. Iran is in a very good position right now. Many people don’t necessarily operate in a party. They don’t really vote for any party. Iran’s system is different from what you have here in the United States. In Iran, parties don’t define what happened. People define what happens. In the course of 30 years, people have had opportunities to confuse people, but then they move on with their lives and are friends. They don’t spend every day on the streets. Now those that vote for me, they’re living their lives, they’re working in the bureaucracy, they’re part of the government majority. I would say they have lives. It’s not the case that if they don’t vote for me, they’re all going to stand in the opposition’s path. People are people. If they don’t win, they go on with their lives and they still recognize the government is better, they cooperate with the government. Now sure, there are those that are in opposition. Every government actually has an opposition. They live their lives too. They send declarations around, they say things. Rest assured, it’s a strong Iran. [inaudible] They are -- Charlie Rose: I didn’t hear that. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: I’m sorry. If you don’t want me to go on you can -- ff you don’t want me to go on, I won’t.
Charlie Rose:
No, I want you to go on. I want you to conclude by this. The nuclear issue is there and you said you don’t want nuclear weapons. We talked about the IAEA. We talked about -- you stated that if the United States and other nations come to the Security Council and get sanctions, that Iran will survive sanctions. Do you fear that war may come, that an attack on Iran may come if sanctions are imposed and they don’t succeed?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: Who would attack Iran?
Charlie Rose:
No one, I would think.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Well, even if we can just assume, I mean, assumptions are not made in the heavens, they’re made on earth and on this earth. Who’s going to attack Iran, on this planet?
Charlie Rose:
Do you believe --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Russia? Russia? China?
Charlie Rose:
No. The United States? No.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Then who?
Charlie Rose:
Would Israel attack Iran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
It hasn’t even counted really. It doesn’t even factor into our equation. It’s not even counted. So who’s going to attack us? There’s no one there to attack us and there will be no one. We don’t think about war. We think about peace. We think about friendships. We think about cooperation and not about war.
Charlie Rose:
So, so when you have said somewhere else that somebody has threatened nuclear annihilation, they haven’t. You’re not worried about the United States attacking. You’re not worried about anybody, even Israel. You’re not worried about that. What you’re hoping for, what you hope for in the best would be Iraq?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Can you repeat that?
Charlie Rose:
In the best sense of nationalism, what you want to see is Iran be able to have the kind of flourishing civilization that it’s always had. Let me just conclude with this question for you, one last question, which is what I’ve asked you often, you know. One step that you would like to see President Obama take to make the relationship better.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Let me just say, one thing about earlier issue that you raised.
Charlie Rose:
Thank you.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We are definitely not afraid of an attack. It does not mean that a threat is not an ugly posture. A country that threatens has done a very ugly thing. Sure, we’re not afraid of them. But when an ugly thing happens, it’s ugly. We want the Obama administration to [unintelligible] attacks [unintelligible]. Because if you are saying they didn’t -- yes, they did. Okay, if you’re saying here they -- okay, some didn’t and some did. That’s to say at least some didn’t, but some did, to be fair. This is what I’m saying. We need Mr. Obama to change. But what he means is to extend the sanctions against Iran. Those sanctions were of no use to begin with, the ones that were extended. It didn’t change the atmosphere you can say. Mr. Obama, when he came to office, he had a conversation with our people. We said let’s give Mr. Obama a chance. Now in Iran, people are not having conversations about Mr. Obama at all. There’s a lot of distrust. Not for us [unintelligible] his trust. Mr. Obama [unintelligible] not give in to pressure. That’s the one step I would take. Your president has to make a decision and act on it.
Charlie Rose:
May I just make a suggestion?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We are ready to take any action. We are ready to take any proposal, to cooperate with him in the region, to help with international relations. In the framework of --
Charlie Rose:
They respect you. Convince them. Convince them that you do not -- convince them that you do not want nuclear weapons. Convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[unintelligible]
Charlie Rose:
You convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
They are framing us with threat attacks. How on earth can I convince them? They have nuclear bombs and --
Charlie Rose:
Convince them you don’t want nuclear weapon. [talking simultaneously]
Charlie Rose: Take a chance. Convince them.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
We’ve given them a chance. In God’s name, we can move forward with reform. Mr. Obama’s policy in Afghanistan contain [inaudible]. When Afghans lose their lives, when NATO troops lose their lives, it doesn’t benefit us. Bloodshed in Afghanistan makes it harder there. Every moment that it’s lasting get more complicated there. How else -- what language do we have to make this understandable in America? You tell me. Maybe you can interpret this for America, how we say every day that goes on things are getting worse in Afghanistan. We need to make a decision. Your policy has to change. Your ten-year-old policy there has failed. This is the biggest chance we’ve given you. I’ve given you. This is the biggest -- we need to [unintelligible] side away. Anything you want -- -- whoever offers America such a great proposal? Who would think that a country so wronged by America would sit aside and be observers of America’s presence in Afghanistan and rejoice in it? But we don’t. We don’t --
Charlie Rose:
Go take --
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
[unintelligible] even if the American troops or Afghan people. They’re people. They’re different. There’s still a difference, by the way. Afghan people are being killed in their homes whereas the American people are losing their lives in another place. But again, a death is a death.
Charlie Rose:
It is.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Whether the Afghan troops or the American troops.
Charlie Rose:
A death is a death. Absolutely right.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Neither group decided to be there and both groups are losing their lives. So we’re getting a very good chance and opportunity and proposal here to America to show you the way out of Afghanistan.
Charlie Rose:
Can we continue this conversation in Tehran? Can we continue this conversation in Tehran?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
Definitely. Definitely. Whenever you’re welcome in Tehran any time.
Charlie Rose:
And we’ll continue the conversation there. Thank you, Mr. President. You have been generous of your time. We have talked many times, and I, again, on behalf of the audience of this program, thank you once again for taking time to appreciate the opportunity and the culture that exists. Thank you.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
The opportunity will always be available.
Charlie Rose:
From New York City, a conversation with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.